Avodah Zarah 68

In the midst of the Gemara’s ongoing discussion about the nature of flavor and what gives positive or negative taste, we encounter this incident:

A certain mouse fell into a barrel of beer. Rav deemed that beer forbidden. The sages said before Rav Sheshet: Shall we say that Rav maintains that (even in a case where the forbidden substance) imparts flavor to the detriment, it is forbidden?

The Gemara has established that the majority of sages hold that forbidden substances that impart negative flavor do not prohibit food with which they come into contact. Rabbi Meir believes even negative flavor has the power to render the food prohibited. Given the reasonable assumption that a mouse would impart negative flavor to a beer, Rav’s ruling implies he holds like Rabbi Meir’s minority opinion.

Rav Sheshet immediately pushes back on this conclusion:

Rav Sheshet said to them: Rav generally maintains that detrimental flavor imparted is permitted, but here it is a novelty, as it is repulsive and people distance themselves from it, and even so the Merciful One prohibits it. Therefore, although it imparts flavor to the detriment, it is still forbidden.

Rav Sheshet suggests that a mouse, which doesn’t simply impart negative flavor to a mixture but is gross unto itself, presents something of a novel case. Since a mouse (unlike many other non-kosher creatures) is forbidden to consume even though it’s disgusting, then the whole framework of judging the permissibility of something by whether it gives a negative taste makes no sense. This rule’s rationale is premised on the idea that if a forbidden substance imparts a negative taste, it provides no benefit to the affected food — if anything, it detracts. But if the mouse is in and of itself always repulsive, regardless of whether it has gone bad or what it is mixed with, why then would mixing its repulsive taste with a kosher food suddenly be fine?

However, not all the sages accept his conclusion:

Rav Shimi of Neharde’a objects: And is it repulsive? But isn’t it served at the table of kings? Rav Shimi of Neharde’a said: This is not difficult. This is with regard to a field mouse, and that is with regard to a city mouse.

While we may all have intuitively agreed with Rav Sheshet’s assertion that a mouse is itself repulsive, Rav Shimi suggests this is not in fact consensus. Some people serve mouse as a delicacy. Ultimately the Gemara resolves this issue neatly — mice of the field are delicacies, whereas city mice are repugnant. Rava then intercedes in the discussion without neatly resolving our local case:

Rava said: The law is detrimental flavor imparted is permitted. But a mouse in beer, I do not know the reason that Rav (deemed it forbidden), whether because he maintains that detrimental flavor imparted is forbidden, and the law is not in accordance with him, or whether he maintains detrimental flavor imparted is permitted, and a mouse that falls into beer enhances (its flavor).

Rava clarifies that even if Rav were to hold like Rabbi Meir and rule that negative-tasting forbidden substances are prohibited, we rule that they are permitted. But that doesn’t tell us about Rav’s underlying logic. It may be a dispute on position about the law itself — that is, he holds like the minority opinion of Rabbi Meir — or it may be a difference in his view of material reality: Perhaps a mouse actually does improve the flavor of beer. While we may resoundingly answer no, whether Rav would have agreed remains a mystery. 

Read all of Avodah Zarah 68 on Sefaria.

This piece originally appeared in a My Jewish Learning Daf Yomi email newsletter sent on August 25, 2025. If you are interested in receiving the newsletter, sign up here.