Burn the Lycra!
by Daniel Septimus • January 29th, 2007 10:22 AM
Category: History & Community
On Thursday night, Ultra-Orthodox activists in Jerusalem burned barrels of “immodest” clothing, claiming that female immodesty is the only thing that still needs to be fixed in this otherwise perfect world.
We will get rid of the tight clothes and the Holy One, Blessed be He, will place his mercy on us,” it was written on one of the signs held by the protestors. “Modesty is the only thing that needs to be corrected in our generation,” the rabbis clarified, saying this would solve the troubles of today. “We must overcome this hurdle,” they pleaded. (MORE)
This on the heels of the petition prepared by five women protesting the “kosher” busses that require women to sit in a special section in the back.
It’s tricky to comment on another group’s religious behavior — people should, in theory, be able to live by the values they choose. But freedom of religion is not the same as relativism. Stating ones convictions isn’t necessarily inappropriately judgmental. It’s what we do when we have a sense of right and wrong.
So I’ll just say it: Can claiming that female immodesty is the only thing plaguing our generation be anything but misogyny?
72 Responses to “Burn the Lycra!”
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Hannah32
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 2
Trying to enforce modest clothing within the public sphere – and claiming that immodest dress is what’s most wrong with the present day - is misogyny, absolutely. Burning the clothes is an act of aggression toward women – both through the degree of control they are trying to exert over women’s bodies and through the symbolic violence of the bonfires. But I guess if you’re following tzniut and family purity laws, you’re already a little bit accustomed to rabbinical intervention in these kinds of choices, yes?
Also, isn’t there something a little bit fetishy about how they went around collecting all the “immodest” garments? Is it really anger they were feeling, surrounded by huge piles of this clothing?
cuteblondeJAP
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 3
Oh my! I find that being a “observant, blonde, divorced, mother of two, Jewish woman” has already put so many restraint on me and my life. It’s men like that who when I pass by the turn there noses up, and pretend I dont exhist. With my nose ring and shiny long blond hair, to them I look like so many other goy. But when you look deeply into the shell, to where my heart is, I am maybe more an observant Jew then they will ever be. I would eurge these men to take thier modest educated selfs back to the learning centers and keep thier minds focused on the more importaint things like keeping G_ds commandments instead of sitting in judgement of others.
Not living in a community where modest dressing is the only way or dressing, all I can think is that these “men of honor” had nothing better to do than to burn clothing that probly put off toxic fumes, and cost money that could have been used to help a jewish mother or child who has no one else to help care for them is a travisty.
Living by G_ds law is one thing but making them selves as G_ds by taking this action I only hope and will pray that the judgement that they made is not held over their heads til the day they die.
I think that they need to get back to the study of Torah and give those tight close back to the rightful owners. That would also be considers stealing…
I wish these men could look outside the box and see that not all out here is bad. After all if it werent for the lowliest of men (and women) thier lives would be much more difficult.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
To paraphrase the quote from Hesse which is on display at the Dachau museum:
“Those who begin by burning Lycra will in the end burn Lady Lycra.”
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
CutebloneJAP:
Nose rings were very popular at the time of our 3 great fathers. Read the Torah, and see what they loved to give the woman they wanten for a wife…..
Doctore:
Indeed how right Hesse was. Thanks for bringing this one.
צליל
Ezekah
Member Since: Oct 2006 Posts: 436
That’s awful. What sets these haredi apart from Muslims enforcing the burka?
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
Ezekah,
More to the emotional point:
What separates these haredi from Nazi or Klan bookburners?
AlexUtiug
Member Since: Jul 2004 Posts: 991
Doctor,
The answer is, nothing, other than the nationality. The moment we (humans in general) start believing that we are superior to others, we become Nazi. We (Jews in particular) have no right to forget about it.
lornewel
Member Since: Apr 2006 Posts: 215
“Can claiming that female immodesty is the only thing plaguing our generation be anything but misogyny? ”
Immodesty the only thing? If anyone truly believes that, then it is more than misogyny - it is dangerous naivete. What about greed, powerlust, racism, anti-Semitism, superiority complexes, inferiority complexes, addictions, covenant-breaking, etc. etc. - I can think of plenty of plagues.
Ezekah
Member Since: Oct 2006 Posts: 436
Doctor, I disagree with you. My comparison was a direct comparison, groups of fundamentalist people dictating clothing for females. Your comparison only works in the instrument used, i.e. fire. Bookburners attempt to suppress ideas, not clothing. I’m not aware of Nazis or the Klan burning clothes they didn’t like. Did the Klan ever attempt to enforce a bed-sheet dress code?
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
Ezekah,
The Nazis and the Klan burn(ed) books for two reasons: to demonstrate that the worth of the books and ideas were determined by who wrote them (books written by Jews are intrinsically worthless except as tinder), and to intimidate anyone who wanted to stand up against their ideas i.e. we can burn you too.
Charedi burning clothing they deem immodest serves to intimidate those who might choose to wear those clothes, and demonstrates a mindset that is truly frightening.
And yes, the Klan and the Nazis tried to institute standards of appearance: Aryan only.
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
This is so sad.
Israel needs to get its act together NOW and deal with this crap immediately and deal with it seriously.
We are fortunate that Israel is not a total theocracy. That it has quite naturally remained a liberal-capitalist-democracy and that it has not turned into a dictatorship-fundamentalist regime-like state like the cesspool that it is surrounded by.
However, when we read about these nut-case rabbis spraying women who are not wearing proper clothing, we must ask ourselves: what the hell is the state doing about it? In most civilized and proper countries, that type of thing would be assault. Are these rabbis being arrested and put in jail for assulting women with spraycans etc? What the hell is going on here? Its like these religious nutcases who go violent trying to preven a gay-pride parade in Jerusalem. Who the hell do they think they are? They should go back to Crown Heights where they belong.
The problem is basic: Israel cannot yet come to terms with seperating religion from state. Until it does that, we will have a problem with religious nutcases thinking they can get away with spraying women with paint if they think they aren’t dressed right.
Israel
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
While good intentioned–an effort to be more careful with certain mitzvot, this whole enterprise has turned into a chillul Hashem
1) I don’t agree with the whole thing, but a lot of the people in those communities support it–they volunteered their stuff to be burned, who am I to tell them they can’t burn their own clothes (if it’s not some massive public hazard)..
2) I think the destruction of other people’s property is ridiculous, uncalled for and should be stopped by the authorities
3) Are you kidding me, the difference between haredim, nazis, and the klan–I don’t know maybe the whole genocide, lynching, and violent terrorism of other groups based solely on rabid bigotry. Let’s all get a little perspective-there’s a huge difference in between that and burning clothes.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
I dunno…the symbolism is pretty striking.
And as far as “it’s only clothes” I suppose it’s only a wooden cross that’s burning, too…
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
While I also don’t really agree with comparing the haredim with nazis at this point, I will say that burning the clothes is sending a clear message that if those wackos actually got into power and controlled the country, that there is no guarantee that they wouldn’t start deporting arabs, forcing secular jews to “mitzvot” and cramming kugel down everyone’s throats.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
First of all, its not all haredim and its their clothes (except for a few nutjobs who need to be arrested), they can burn them if they want to. Very different from burning crosses in other peoples yards–(which by the way is one of the lesser acts of the klan–and was often accompanied by physical beatings, lynchings, further destruction of property, etc.)
Second the deporting arabs–haredim don’t all support mass deportation of arabs (i’m sure that there are some that probably do), but I know plenty of secular Israelis that would be willing to ship every arab in Israel somewhere else so I don’t understand your point.
Third, although the haredi community feels that as a Jewish state, the country should run according to Torah laws, and as such try to stop things such as public shabbat desecration or gov sponsored violations of Torah–they use regular economic and political means to achieve their goals so your major concern should be the amount of secular Israelis who move out of Israel and their low birth rate if the haredi community takes over in Israel before moshiach.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
So if the Klan burns a cross at their rally in the woods, and it’s not on someone’s lawn, it’s not intimidation?
And what about the people who force women to sit in the back of public buses? And use “regular and political means” to force the public buses to enforce these policies?
Intimidation is still intimidation; and “regular and political means” describes the Nuremberg Laws also…
And the answer to Israeli society being pressured to reflect the value of haredi is to blame the secular Jews for not having a higher birthrate?
Ezekah
Member Since: Oct 2006 Posts: 436
I showed this stuff to an Orthodox guy I know. He refused to answer if he agreed with them or not, which to me means he agrees but was embarassed to tell me so. He excused their behavior due to 1) they have signs posted about the public clothing requirements in their area and 2) because it’s a small area.
I wonder what would happen to a non-Hebrew speaking tourist that wandered into their area.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
regarding the klan burning a cross in the woods, its intimidation (its a demonstration of power over a minority,its inciting a mob to then pursue destructive behavior, but the haredi situation is a group of people decided they didn’t like certain types of clothes, wigs, etc of their own and burned them), granted I still think its unnecessary and makes frum people look crazy, but to each their own.
The bus issue is a little more complicated. These buses are segregated by request of the people in the community. I lived in a haredi community in Israel for a while and without there being any such rule in effect (not the buses in question), men and women sat separately, the part of the bus was generally dictated by whoever got on first. These buses are generally only going to and from communities where the customer wants this type of seating. I personally don’t see a real problem with it, I rode them a couple times and it usually wasn’t a big deal, plenty of room for all. I think its unnecessary for me, but its seemingly necessary for the sensitivities of the people who live there. There are bus lines that do the same thing in America (they’re private, but sometimes its the only way to really get to certain communities by public transport). I think that in efforts to be makpid, people are taking things way out of hand.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
Are you seriously comparing this to the Nuremberg Laws, you need to gain some perspective (I was merely saying that if things become more according Torah in Israel it’s because that what’s the citizenry would want (a growing portion of the young population is dati or haredi due to higher birthrates and a religious commitment to stay in Israel so in a generation or two it will be interesting to see how the dynamic changes), not that there is danger of them becoming the Taliban–because the haredi community contrary to popular belief has no aspirations to that effect (stopping blatant public Torah violations by the government and in their communities, yes–but even witihin the haredi community there are wide differences as to what is acceptable, so I doubt anyone has to worry about forced kugel feedings any time soon–I mean what hechsher would they use.
Jason Brzoska
Member Since: Jul 2003 Posts: 511
Stoking the flames of this conversation just a little bit… From Jewschool:
Israel: Two States For Two Peoples?
-Jason
Ezekah
Member Since: Oct 2006 Posts: 436
I sure hope not. It’s been tried before…with horrific results.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
My reference to the Nuremberg Laws was in response to the comment that the haredi are going through the legal and political process to mold society as they see fit. The Nuremberg Laws were not imposed by a dictate; they were passed in a legal fashion by the German parliament. My point is that I am not reassured by things going through the “proper channels” because that is no guarrantee that the laws thus passed are a good thing.
Check this week’s Forward for the story of an Orthodox woman who was forced into the back of a public bus not going specifically between haredi communities; she writes of the pressure on the government to make this official policy on all public buses. I believe her exact words were “I don’t expect to live under the Taliban while in Israel.”
And by the way, name for me a private bus company in the US of A that requires women or minorities sit in the back. It’s completely illegal and I really don’t want to take someone’s word that “it happens in the US” without some kind of verification…
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
CommunityManager wrote:
“Stoking the flames of this conversation just a little bit… From Jewschool:
Israel: Two States For Two Peoples? “
As an Israeli, I do not see it as being quite so polarized, although the media has a good reason for us to think so—-$$$$
AlexUtiug
Member Since: Jul 2004 Posts: 991
[quote]The Nuremberg Laws were not imposed by a dictate; they were passed in a legal fashion by the German parliament. My point is that I am not reassured by things going through the “proper channels” because that is no guarrantee that the laws thus passed are a good thing.
Exactly. It is a very dangerous situation. All it takes is one demagogue powerful enough - and Israel (or any other democratic country, for that matter) will become its opposite, democracy or not.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
The reason I guess I don’t consider this remotely the same as the Nuremberg laws is that if haredim ever ran Israel the most that would happen is the country would be run according to halacha, and as a Jewish state I think that would be fine—I know, I know my own personal opinion (but there are enough differences of opinion as to what that is that it would never happen, there are way to many factions within the haredi community (and there is a huge dati leumi community as well, which would have to be worked with so it wouldn’t be so extreme) for this to ever occur, maybe more requirement of shops to be closed on Shabbat and a prohibition of things that are essentially treif like pork and shellfish) and the Nuremberg laws were the beginnings of genocide.
Second the buslines in America are run a little differently as they have a mechitza down the middle (at least the ones I rode), which personally I thought was worse than any of the separate buses I sat on in Israel.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
I’m not going to give the name, but I will tell you that I’ve ridden on it–as I said before its a mechitza down the middle not the back of the bus and I know people that ride it every day.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
I do believe there is a parallel with the Nuremberg laws: those laws were designed to intimidate and make vunerable a group which did not fit in with the vision of the government for the future of that society.
If Israel passed a law requiring that no one [regardless of who] could drive on Shabbat, that would be, from the point of view of a secular Israeli, an Israeli Christian, or an Israeli Moslem, a clear message that they are not welcome in the State.
If Israel passed a law requiring that no one [regardless of who] could operate a restaurant which did not meet kashrut guidelines that would be, from the point of view of a secular Israeli, an Israeli Christian, or an Israeli Moslem, a clear message that they are not welcome in the State.
If Israel passed a law requiring all women to dress sniut [as defined by whomever the state designated as the official Dress Code Maven] that would be no different than the legal restrictions on women’s dress in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or under the Taliban. And don’t tell me that the difference is that no one in Israel would beat women for dressing immodestly; that’s like saying that no one in Israel would ever throw a rock at a car driving by on Saturday…
As for the bus with the mechitzah, it’s clearly illegal in the US and if someone decided to challenge it it would not stand. “The law of the land is the law” and religious organizations, while they do have some leeway in some areas, cannot discriminate in such a way.
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
AlexUtiug wrote:
“Exactly. It is a very dangerous situation. All it takes is one demagogue powerful enough - and Israel (or any other democratic country, for that matter) will become its opposite, democracy or not.”
True, but it works BOTH ways. Israel could also have a militant secularlist take over who will want to outlaw circumcision, take away the laws that one cannot be forced to work on Shabbat, make shechita (kosher slaughtering) illegal, like they are proposing in some European countries, etc. etc. Of course the chances of this happening are about the same as the chances of some ultra-orthodox figure taking over and turning Israel into one big Meah Shearim—- next to nil….
Despite what the media portrays, the polarization between the “religious” and “secular” is NOT as drastic as one might think and the majority of Israelis fall somewhere between tolerant secular and tolerant religious. Yes, even most haredim in Israel are NOT of the same mindset as the lunatics that the article of this thread is about. They certainly have their opinions, just like anyone else in Israel, but let us not paintbrush people here.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
TheDoctor wrote:
“As for the bus with the mechitzah, it’s clearly illegal in the US and if someone decided to challenge it it would not stand. “The law of the land is the law” and religious organizations, while they do have some leeway in some areas, cannot discriminate in such a way.”
I haven’t lived in the States for over 12 years now, but if I remember the law correctly, if the bus is owned by a private company they do have the leeway of putting up a mechitza, especially if the bus is part of a private school. A public busline? Now that is a different story and the answer is a resounding, “NO WAY”.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
מנחם
Do you live in Israel??? The polarization between secular and religious is VERY drastic. Yes, yes, there are some greys between the black and white, but it is outside Israel that it is not drastic, but in Israel??? they hate each other.
צליל
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Tzlil, YES, I do live in Israel for over 12 years now. As a “dati leumi”, “kippa seruga”, etc. I have friends from all walks of life- from secular to ultra-orthodox and everything in between. Certainly, there are extremists on BOTH sides who make a lot of noise and the media makes a great entertainment industry out of these extremists, but “religious” and “secular” hating each other is a pretty broad statement, especially when these labels do NOT do justice to reality- most Israelis are somewhere in the middle (i.e. maybe not “orthodox”, but not totally “secular” either).
Obviously, I have my disagreements with most “charedim” on certain issues, just like I have my disagreement with “ultra-secular” on certain issues, but to say that the lunatics who are the topic of this thread represent the charedim would be about as fair as saying that “gush-shalom” represents the secular-left.
Again, the charedim have their opinions just like anyone else and they vote by their opinions just like anyone else. That is democracy. And speaking of “Nazis” and “Nuremberg Laws”, does it sound any better when militant secularists talk about how the charedim are “multiplying too much, parasites, want to take over the country, etc.”. Demagogery works from BOTH sides.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
Don’t misunderstand me. The Nuremberg Laws reference was in response to a statement that the pressure to adopt halachic practices across society was being done “through the process” and therefore should not be alarming to anyone.
For the record, I have as much concern with laws enforcing secularism as I do with laws enforcing observance. Being personally about halfway inbetween, both extremes frighten me. And having grown up in the American South, where despite laws forbidding the infliction of religious practice on others we were forced into explicitly christian prayers, holiday celebrations, etc in the public schools I am perhaps more sensitive to the activity of those on the Taliban side of the spectrum, as opposed to those on the Bolshevik side. But both extremes should have no place in forcing either observance or lack of observance on private citizens; obviously I believe that public venues such as publically funded schools, transportation, etc should be religion-free; what people do in their own homes, shuls, cars, etc is their problem. Just don’t get the government to push it on others…
Because that leads either to a “observant” dictatorship such as the Taliban or a “secular” dictatorship such as the USSR.
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
TheDoctor, fair enough. If you got the impression I was singling you out, that was NOT my intention. I wasn’t singling ANYBODY out, but just trying to make people aware of a double standard that sometimes exists. Your above post, more or less, sums up about how I feel on the matter. And the reality I have seen while living in Israel is that the chances of Israel becoming the USSR or Taliban are next to NIL, as most Israelis are somewhere in the middle (and in a democracy, whoever gets the most votes is elected and becomes prime minister). Most likely, the status quo will remain, most Israelis will just continue to live their lives, be mostly worried about how they are going to make a living, support their families, whether or not Iran, Syria, or any of our other jolly “neighbors” will attack us. Setting up a “modesty patrol” or coming up with laws to ban circumcision are just NOT what are on top of most Israelis minds these days.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
מנחם:
Sorry, most Israelis are not religious even if they do Pesach etc. Same as most people do Christamas especially in North America, without even being Christians,(and we are not even talking about the Chanuka Bush…)
That you have friends in all walks of life simply make you a colourful “grey”…..
In your last sentence you actually “rested my case”.
צליל
AlexUtiug
Member Since: Jul 2004 Posts: 991
mbczion, I understand. My point is simply that extremism becomes dangerous when it spills into politics.
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Tzil wrote:
“Sorry, most Israelis are not religious even if they do Pesach etc. Same as most people do Christamas especially in North America, without even being Christians,(and we are not even talking about the Chanuka Bush…)”
That is my point—-most Israelis are not “religious”, BUT most Israelis are not “secular” either (at least not in the truest sense of the word). If you were to do a survey of how many Jewish Israelis fast on Yom Kippur, build a Sukkah, do the Chagim (no, I don’t mean according to halacha), celebrate Purim, Chanukkah, etc., attend or host a Pesach Seder, believe in the importance of Brit Milah and being Bar Mitzvahed, etc. I don’t think “secular” would be an accurate description either. And if you took a survey on how many Israelis “believe in G-d” you might be surprised too. Regarding the Christians in America, they are also IMHO (from what I remember when I lived there) NOT so polarized either.
Tzlil wrote:
“That you have friends in all walks of life simply make you a colourful “grey”…..”
Yes, which is what most Israelis would be described as.
Tzlil wrote:
“In your last sentence you actually “rested my case”.”
Which last sentence would that be? From my last post or the one before?
If from my last post (#34), then I actually “rested MY case” and if from my post before that (#32), then please explain how that rests either of our cases.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
Bat Melech
Member Since: Jun 2006 Posts: 119
If it was their own immodest clothing they were burning, I don’t see that that’s any more of a threat to other communities than the bra-burning feminists of the 70’s USA, or the fundagelical bonfires where born-agains throw their old “demonic” rock.
If it’s somebody else’s lycra or rock albums they are immolating, that’s a different story. That’s concerning.
The Doctor
Member Since: Feb 2004 Posts: 1030
Bat Melech,
I disagree. It’s making a statement about how they want society to work and there’s still an implication of intimidation to Lycra-wearers who want to live in the same society.
The fact that it’s their own Lycra is immaterial. The Klan uses its own wood to make burning crosses to use at their private rallies; doesn’t make it any less intimidating.
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Ay Doctor: You ARE so smart. I agree with you.
צליל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
The issue is not whether or not they have the right to burn their own clothes. The issue is whether or not they are sending an aggressive and very negative message by doing so. I think they are. Burning is a very, very symbolic gesture (particularly to religious nutcases). You know, like burning a flag?
What on earth are you talking about? Israel is currently not a theocracy. The ruling population does not deport arabs. Are you suggesting that if the ultra orthadox took over complete power in Israel that they would not start treating arabs worse than the current leadership?
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
No, I’m afraid you’re wrong. There are areas in Jerusalem where a tax-paying citizen of Israel would not be able to drive their car through (even though a public street) on shabbat without risk of having their car stoned.
Sounds taliban-like to me. Can you imagine what they would feel free in doing should they come to power? They wouldn’t just be burning clothing, my friend.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
And you base that on… what? Speculation?
If ultra-orthadox nutjobs took over israel, not only would the state be run according to halacha, but punishments as well. I wonder how homosexuals would be punished? I wonder how people who cheat on their wives/husbands would be punished? I wonder if a tax-paying citizen would be able to drive on Shabbat? What would be the punishments? Hmmmm. I really wonder what your idea of a state where “the most that would happen is” that its run according to halacha?
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
Nowhere will you find to groups of people that despise each other the way the secular in Israel do againt the ultra orthadox. No amount of icing sugar is going to hide that fact.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
So if I have “my own” israeli flag, then its not really sending an aggressive message when I burn it? They are not burning “their own” clothings. They are burning they symbols of OTHER PEOPLE’S lifestyles and beliefs. Thats exactly what they are aiming to do.
ישראל
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Israel wrote:
“Nowhere will you find to groups of people that despise each other the way the secular in Israel do againt the ultra orthadox. No amount of icing sugar is going to hide that fact.”
And, Israel, who exactly is representing the “secular” here? You. The “secular” you associate with. The “secular” I associate with. And who, exactly, is “secular”? Whoever is NOT orthodox. Whoever does not believe in G-d. Whoever keeps very little of the mitzvot. None of the mitzvot.
And is having disagreements on issues considered hating? Dunno. I just need some clarification here because there is a bit of ambiguity.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Israel:
I agree with what you said.
In fact, if the ultra ortodox take over Israel, they may even deport all Israelis that don’t follow their kind of ortodoxy. That includs people that are Shomre Mitzvot, but not very ortodox. They will keep the Moslems, because they have no problems with them. Even now they are siding with the Palestinians against Israel, and they rejoys when a bomber kills Israelies. (And this goes against the Torah teachings.)
I also agree with you that burning clothings is a symbol against other people’s life style.
מנחם
SECULAR depands on who is talking. For the ultra ortodox you are secular too.
Look at the Jews of New York. The Satmar Chasidim hate the Chabad Chasidim. For them, Chabad , who are ortodox, are not at all. So much so, that at one point and not too long ago, the Satmar Chasidim sent a pig into the Chabad streets to make thier point….
צליל
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
It’s not the Taliban, its respecting their community–they’re not killing people for not following their religious dictates, they’re setting standards for the community they live in. They move to certain communities to avoid things like people driving on Shabbat–and the people throwing rocks that people always talk about are little kids.
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Israel:
Tax-paying citizens are already unable to drive in many places in Israel on Shabbat.
צליל
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Celecteno:
I don’t know where you live, or if you wish to dellude yourself.
The people throwing rocks on Shabbat (is that not considered work? also an act of extreme aggration = against Torah…) are not children. They are adults young AND OLD . It is very well documented on film, pictures in news, and by people like myself who have SEEN it with thier own two eyes because they LIVED in Jerusalem for many years. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!
Celecteno it is best to think before you write things you know nothing about.
צליל
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
You agree based on what, how many haredi people do you know-they would never deport Jews out of Israel-that’s completely untrue. Why would they keep muslims and kick out jews, they do NOT side with the Palestinians. They don’t rejoice when suicide bombers kill Jews (haredi people are sometimes victims, secular Israelis aren’t the only ones who get killed by suicide bombers. The people who went to Tehran and march with Palestinians are a small fringe group that are shunned by the rest of the Haredi community, their actions have been unanimously denounced by every Orthodox group from the far left to the far right, at least one of the attendees has been put in cherim. The Satmar/Chabad thing is more complicated than you’re making it and again just because some people do something crazy doesn’t mean that its representative of the whole group. There are far more secular Jews supporting the Palestinians than Orthodox ones, all those far left, Israel is the new nazi germany people are not walking around in streimels.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
I don’t think it classifies in the same category as burning a flag, the whole community by the way was not there burning clothes. Flag burning says I don’t like what you represent (however I’m not really anti-flag burning as a political statement, not that I would do it, but I think people have a right to as a political statement) this says lets make a public statement to our community that we’re irrevocably ridding ourselves of this stuff we find unacceptable.
I know Israel is not a theocracy, I was just saying that even if haredi people were in power they would not treat arabs any worse than the current leadership.
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
First of all a lot of the haredi community says this can’t happen until moshiach so stop worrying about it. Punishments for some of the behavior you’re describing requires a lot of proof with qualifying witnesses, etc for the beit din that doesn’t generally exist so again stop worrying about
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Again Celesteno:
DO YOUR HOMEWORK , CALMLY!
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tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Do you know that many orthodox and yes, that includs all of Chabad, do NOT recognize Israel? Yes, some of them serve in the army because ” you have to save a Jew,” (THEY told me so ) but they do not recognize Israel , and this is the reason why non of them ever celebrate Independence Day - Yom Haatzmaut , because to them there is no Jewish state until Mashiach comes?
Now,Celecteno, if you do your homework you can naturally deduct why they do not mind the Moslems in Israel, and why they do not mind if there are No Jews in Israel…..
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mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Tzlil wrote:
“SECULAR depands on who is talking. For the ultra ortodox you are secular too.”
Maybe to the “ultra orthodox” I am “secular” and if that is so, then that is their right to think so. What do I care about labels? As long as the “ultra orthodox” respect the law, then they have the right to think how they want to. FWIW, I am as disturbed about the burning of the clothes as anyone else in this forum, but I am also disturbed by the labeling and pigeonholing because division amongst us will destroy faster than our enemies from the outside will.
Tzlil wrote:
“Look at the Jews of New York. The Satmar Chasidim hate the Chabad Chasidim. For them, Chabad , who are ortodox, are not at all. So much so, that at one point and not too long ago, the Satmar Chasidim sent a pig into the Chabad streets to make thier point….”
Ok, so now we are switching to the Jews in New York (which is fine, I just thought we were concentrating on the disputes in Israel, but moving along….) Now, YOU are resting MY case, there are NO CLEAR labels that EVERYONE can agree to, see we might as well stop with the labels and figure out how we can mend the divisions within Klal Yisrael or we are in big trouble, even without the radical Islamists wanting to destroy us.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Another point, regarding the claim that Haredim would have the Arabs deported if they came to power is a bunch of nonsense. I might have my share of issues with the “Haredim” in Israel, but when it comes to the Arabs and the Israeli/Arab conflict, they are more dovish than the national-religious (which I would most likely be classified as) and many secular.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Celesteno:
Did I read it right? you worte that “Israel is the new Nazi Germany”??????
Yes , you wrote it.
Are you O.K?
You may want to see your doctor for an Aspirin? Valium?
צליל
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
One, I have done my homework, I’ve lived in a haredi community in Israel and have plenty of friends that still do.
Two, reread what I wrote what I was saying in my above comment is that all of the leftist “liberal” Jews comparing Israel to nazi Germany, calling it an apartheid state, etc. are not running around in streimels, kippot, etc. –ie not haredi.
Three, there is a difference between saying you don’t recognize the state of Israel (either b/c it does not follow Torah law or b/c moshiach has not come) and saying Jews should not live in Israel. There is a special mitzvah to live in Israel, there certain mitzvot that you can only perform in the land of Israel, and there is a special level of kedusha in Israel that does not exist outside of it. You can believe in the importance of Jews living in Israel in a society where at least Judaism is the default culture and Jews are relatively safe without celebrating yom hatzmaot. You have taken one part of the haredi view of the state of Israel and come to a conclusion that is just not true.
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
I invite all of you to visit the following link:
http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=121317
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Book by Bar Ilan Prof “Confirms” Blood Libel
An Israeli professor from Bar Ilan University, in a new book, gives credence to the blood libel claims that Jews murdered Christian children in the Middle Ages and used their blood in rituals….[visit the above link to read the rest]
___________________________________________________
Quite frankly, this garbage worries me more than any Haredi not reciting the Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut (which BTW, I do)….
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
For the purposes of keeping things practical its two groups:
those people that put the word of god ahead of everything else
and those who either don’t care about the word of “god” or only put his words ahead of anything else when its convenient for them.
Those two groups hate each other in isreal.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
This notion that its “little kids” throwing the rocks is about as accurate as saying that its innocent palestinian “kids” that were throwing rocks at israeli soldiers (but I suppose you believe that garbage as well).
The rocks that come flying through your windsheild are thrown by young and old men who place the word of god over and above the safety of those who are driving the car.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
No kidding. That was my point.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
We’re in agreement on this. The left-wing secular jews in Israel and outside of israel have this fetishistic support for the “palestinians”. They just love their music and food and therefore feel that they should be supported unconditionally. I just had a “discussion” the other day with an Israeli lefty who referred to Israel as a racist police state and that the citizens are programmed to support its every move.
Of course, he couldn’t explain why there is such a vocal left-wing movement that has the right to protest in this “police state”. And why this “police state” allows for open and fair debate in the media and in its politics. Or why this “zionist police state” allows arabs to hold seats in the knesset.
This is also a problem with north american peace organizations.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
And burning “immodest” clothing is not saying “I don’t like what you represent?” I don’t know what criteria you are using. You don’t think that those who did the burning are very happy with the publicity? That they are happy that those who are not religious are reading about it? And do you really believe that they were doing the burning just as in internal housecleaning and not to make some sort of a point to non-religious people? Come on, man. Don’t be so naive! Its so obvious.
You don’t know “haredi people”.
ישראל
Israel
Member Since: Mar 2003 Posts: 611
In that case, may the coming of moshiach be a long, long way away.
In fact, lets hope that moshiach never comes. This way people in Israel can hope to have equal rights regardless of whether or not they want to eat pork on their sundecks on a saturday afternoon while blasting some ACDC.
Sounds to me like a world with Moshiach would be a nightmare.
ישראל
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Israel wrote:
“For the purposes of keeping things practical its two groups:
those people that put the word of god ahead of everything else
and those who either don’t care about the word of “god” or only put his words ahead of anything else when its convenient for them.”
Well, those who throw rockes at people driving on Shabbat as well as burning other peoples clothers belong to the latter group because they only put the word of G-d ahead of anything else when it is convenient for them.
Regarding the former group, I guess that would refer to the tzadikim who fear G-d and live by His word, even when it is NOT convenient for them.
Either way, I don’t see wear the secular (or, at least, those who do not believ in G-d) would fit in here, as one who does not believe in G-d would not care about the word of G-d in the first place.
So, now I am more confused then ever as to who is “secular” and which two groups it is that hate each other so much in Israel.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
“Jewish Tailiban”
A bit from the report I read:
It was a Canadian woman from Toronto by the name Miriam Shear, a married religious person, who refused to give up her seat on the bus and move to the back. She was SET UPON by five men for 20 minutes, slapped, pushed out of her seat and onto the floor, beaten and kicked. ( I am surprised they did not rape her …)
This issu is not only religious freedom. It is a crimial assault and from the Torah point of view, from the Jewish ethical standpoint, an amazing irony.
The idea of orthodox Jews spitting and degrading another Jew while pretending to be holier than the victim is a contradiction they cannot explain
away.
And did you know about the “Bleach Patrols”? A group of religious tugs Tailiban like, who splash with bleach individuals they determine to be dressed imodestly?
and again to quote:
“The moment when one person’s freedom of religioun expresses itself in physical violence, it passes from the realm of religious freedom and becomes criminal assult, superseding any lofty claims of higher authority…… Israel is a democratic, secular Jewish state. While it makes provisions and very significant ones, at that, for religious and other minorities, its transcendent core principles are egalitarianism and fair applicion of the rule of law.”
צליל
mbczion
Member Since: Jan 2006 Posts: 357
בס’’ד
Tzlil, I agree with ALL of your above post.
מנחם בן צבי הכהן
celesteno
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 63
As far as the bus incident and the bleach patrol is concerned, I think its pretty universal that everyone thinks its was awful, unacceptable and the people involved need to be punished. But again its a couple of crazies not the entire haredi community involved or who even remotely support their behavior. A lot of people think its a chillul Hashem and the people involved need to be stopped.
tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
Celesteno:
I see very clearly your Pathway to Denial. Look at history. All the greatest wars and the worst atrocities and awful holocausts and catastrophes started with - in your words - “a couple of crazies ” such as Hitler and his friends?
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tzlil
Member Since: Jan 2007 Posts: 162
מנחם
תודה
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hms1981
Member Since: Mar 2007 Posts: 15
what about the ultra-Orthodox Jews who lead double lives? the ones who visit fetish and strip clubs and deal drugs? i find it strange for them to engage in these inappropriate behaviors while they enforce women to cover body parts that tend to go unnoticed most of the time. i understand why some people are very strict about modesty, but i think there are worse things in life than if a woman’s elbow is showing.