Burn the Lycra!

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On Thursday night, Ultra-Orthodox activists in Jerusalem burned barrels of “immodest” clothing, claiming that female immodesty is the only thing that still needs to be fixed in this otherwise perfect world.

We will get rid of the tight clothes and the Holy One, Blessed be He, will place his mercy on us,” it was written on one of the signs held by the protestors. “Modesty is the only thing that needs to be corrected in our generation,” the rabbis clarified, saying this would solve the troubles of today. “We must overcome this hurdle,” they pleaded. (MORE)

This on the heels of the petition prepared by five women protesting the “kosher” busses that require women to sit in a special section in the back.

It’s tricky to comment on another group’s religious behavior — people should, in theory, be able to live by the values they choose. But freedom of religion is not the same as relativism. Stating ones convictions isn’t necessarily inappropriately judgmental. It’s what we do when we have a sense of right and wrong.

So I’ll just say it: Can claiming that female immodesty is the only thing plaguing our generation be anything but misogyny?

Posted on January 29, 2007

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72 thoughts on “Burn the Lycra!

  1. The Doctor

    To paraphrase the quote from Hesse which is on display at the Dachau museum:

    “Those who begin by burning Lycra will in the end burn Lady Lycra.”

  2. Hannah32

    Trying to enforce modest clothing within the public sphere – and claiming that immodest dress is what’s most wrong with the present day – is misogyny, absolutely. Burning the clothes is an act of aggression toward women – both through the degree of control they are trying to exert over women’s bodies and through the symbolic violence of the bonfires. But I guess if you’re following tzniut and family purity laws, you’re already a little bit accustomed to rabbinical intervention in these kinds of choices, yes?

    Also, isn’t there something a little bit fetishy about how they went around collecting all the “immodestâ€? garments? Is it really anger they were feeling, surrounded by huge piles of this clothing?

  3. tzlil

    CutebloneJAP:

    Nose rings were very popular at the time of our 3 great fathers. Read the Torah, and see what they loved to give the woman they wanten for a wife…..

    Doctore:

    Indeed how right Hesse was. Thanks for bringing this one.

    צליל

  4. The Doctor

    Ezekah,

    More to the emotional point:

    What separates these haredi from Nazi or Klan bookburners?

  5. cuteblondeJAP

    Oh my! I find that being a “observant, blonde, divorced, mother of two, Jewish woman” has already put so many restraint on me and my life. It’s men like that who when I pass by the turn there noses up, and pretend I dont exhist. With my nose ring and shiny long blond hair, to them I look like so many other goy. But when you look deeply into the shell, to where my heart is, I am maybe more an observant Jew then they will ever be. I would eurge these men to take thier modest educated selfs back to the learning centers and keep thier minds focused on the more importaint things like keeping G_ds commandments instead of sitting in judgement of others.
    Not living in a community where modest dressing is the only way or dressing, all I can think is that these “men of honor” had nothing better to do than to burn clothing that probly put off toxic fumes, and cost money that could have been used to help a jewish mother or child who has no one else to help care for them is a travisty.
    Living by G_ds law is one thing but making them selves as G_ds by taking this action I only hope and will pray that the judgement that they made is not held over their heads til the day they die.
    I think that they need to get back to the study of Torah and give those tight close back to the rightful owners. That would also be considers stealing…
    I wish these men could look outside the box and see that not all out here is bad. After all if it werent for the lowliest of men (and women) thier lives would be much more difficult.

  6. AlexUtiug

    Doctor,

    The answer is, nothing, other than the nationality. The moment we (humans in general) start believing that we are superior to others, we become Nazi. We (Jews in particular) have no right to forget about it.

  7. lornewel

    “Can claiming that female immodesty is the only thing plaguing our generation be anything but misogyny? ”

    Immodesty the only thing? If anyone truly believes that, then it is more than misogyny – it is dangerous naivete. What about greed, powerlust, racism, anti-Semitism, superiority complexes, inferiority complexes, addictions, covenant-breaking, etc. etc. – I can think of plenty of plagues.

  8. Ezekah

    [The Doctor]Ezekah, More to the emotional point:
    What separates these haredi from Nazi or Klan bookburners?

    Doctor, I disagree with you. My comparison was a direct comparison, groups of fundamentalist people dictating clothing for females. Your comparison only works in the instrument used, i.e. fire. Bookburners attempt to suppress ideas, not clothing. I’m not aware of Nazis or the Klan burning clothes they didn’t like. Did the Klan ever attempt to enforce a bed-sheet dress code?

  9. The Doctor

    Ezekah,

    The Nazis and the Klan burn(ed) books for two reasons: to demonstrate that the worth of the books and ideas were determined by who wrote them (books written by Jews are intrinsically worthless except as tinder), and to intimidate anyone who wanted to stand up against their ideas i.e. we can burn you too.

    Charedi burning clothing they deem immodest serves to intimidate those who might choose to wear those clothes, and demonstrates a mindset that is truly frightening.

    And yes, the Klan and the Nazis tried to institute standards of appearance: Aryan only.

  10. Israel

    This is so sad.

    Israel needs to get its act together NOW and deal with this crap immediately and deal with it seriously.

    We are fortunate that Israel is not a total theocracy. That it has quite naturally remained a liberal-capitalist-democracy and that it has not turned into a dictatorship-fundamentalist regime-like state like the cesspool that it is surrounded by.

    However, when we read about these nut-case rabbis spraying women who are not wearing proper clothing, we must ask ourselves: what the hell is the state doing about it? In most civilized and proper countries, that type of thing would be assault. Are these rabbis being arrested and put in jail for assulting women with spraycans etc? What the hell is going on here? Its like these religious nutcases who go violent trying to preven a gay-pride parade in Jerusalem. Who the hell do they think they are? They should go back to Crown Heights where they belong.

    The problem is basic: Israel cannot yet come to terms with seperating religion from state. Until it does that, we will have a problem with religious nutcases thinking they can get away with spraying women with paint if they think they aren’t dressed right.

    Israel

  11. celesteno

    While good intentioned–an effort to be more careful with certain mitzvot, this whole enterprise has turned into a chillul Hashem

    1) I don’t agree with the whole thing, but a lot of the people in those communities support it–they volunteered their stuff to be burned, who am I to tell them they can’t burn their own clothes (if it’s not some massive public hazard)..

    2) I think the destruction of other people’s property is ridiculous, uncalled for and should be stopped by the authorities

    3) Are you kidding me, the difference between haredim, nazis, and the klan–I don’t know maybe the whole genocide, lynching, and violent terrorism of other groups based solely on rabid bigotry. Let’s all get a little perspective-there’s a huge difference in between that and burning clothes.

  12. The Doctor

    I dunno…the symbolism is pretty striking.

    And as far as “it’s only clothes” I suppose it’s only a wooden cross that’s burning, too…

  13. Israel

    [celesteno]Are you kidding me, the difference between haredim, nazis, and the klan–I don’t know maybe the whole genocide, lynching, and violent terrorism of other groups based solely on rabid bigotry. Let’s all get a little perspective-there’s a huge difference in between that and burning clothes.

    While I also don’t really agree with comparing the haredim with nazis at this point, I will say that burning the clothes is sending a clear message that if those wackos actually got into power and controlled the country, that there is no guarantee that they wouldn’t start deporting arabs, forcing secular jews to “mitzvot” and cramming kugel down everyone’s throats.

    éùøàì

  14. celesteno

    First of all, its not all haredim and its their clothes (except for a few nutjobs who need to be arrested), they can burn them if they want to. Very different from burning crosses in other peoples yards–(which by the way is one of the lesser acts of the klan–and was often accompanied by physical beatings, lynchings, further destruction of property, etc.)

    Second the deporting arabs–haredim don’t all support mass deportation of arabs (i’m sure that there are some that probably do), but I know plenty of secular Israelis that would be willing to ship every arab in Israel somewhere else so I don’t understand your point.

    Third, although the haredi community feels that as a Jewish state, the country should run according to Torah laws, and as such try to stop things such as public shabbat desecration or gov sponsored violations of Torah–they use regular economic and political means to achieve their goals so your major concern should be the amount of secular Israelis who move out of Israel and their low birth rate if the haredi community takes over in Israel before moshiach.

  15. The Doctor

    So if the Klan burns a cross at their rally in the woods, and it’s not on someone’s lawn, it’s not intimidation?

    And what about the people who force women to sit in the back of public buses? And use “regular and political means” to force the public buses to enforce these policies?

    Intimidation is still intimidation; and “regular and political means” describes the Nuremberg Laws also…

    And the answer to Israeli society being pressured to reflect the value of haredi is to blame the secular Jews for not having a higher birthrate?

  16. Ezekah

    I showed this stuff to an Orthodox guy I know. He refused to answer if he agreed with them or not, which to me means he agrees but was embarassed to tell me so. He excused their behavior due to 1) they have signs posted about the public clothing requirements in their area and 2) because it’s a small area.

    I wonder what would happen to a non-Hebrew speaking tourist that wandered into their area.

  17. celesteno

    [The Doctor]So if the Klan burns a cross at their rally in the woods, and it’s not on someone’s lawn, it’s not intimidation?

    And what about the people who force women to sit in the back of public buses? And use “regular and political means” to force the public buses to enforce these policies?

    Intimidation is still intimidation; and “regular and political means” describes the Nuremberg Laws also…

    And the answer to Israeli society being pressured to reflect the value of haredi is to blame the secular Jews for not having a higher birthrate?

    regarding the klan burning a cross in the woods, its intimidation (its a demonstration of power over a minority,its inciting a mob to then pursue destructive behavior, but the haredi situation is a group of people decided they didn’t like certain types of clothes, wigs, etc of their own and burned them), granted I still think its unnecessary and makes frum people look crazy, but to each their own.

    The bus issue is a little more complicated. These buses are segregated by request of the people in the community. I lived in a haredi community in Israel for a while and without there being any such rule in effect (not the buses in question), men and women sat separately, the part of the bus was generally dictated by whoever got on first. These buses are generally only going to and from communities where the customer wants this type of seating. I personally don’t see a real problem with it, I rode them a couple times and it usually wasn’t a big deal, plenty of room for all. I think its unnecessary for me, but its seemingly necessary for the sensitivities of the people who live there. There are bus lines that do the same thing in America (they’re private, but sometimes its the only way to really get to certain communities by public transport). I think that in efforts to be makpid, people are taking things way out of hand.

  18. celesteno

    Are you seriously comparing this to the Nuremberg Laws, you need to gain some perspective (I was merely saying that if things become more according Torah in Israel it’s because that what’s the citizenry would want (a growing portion of the young population is dati or haredi due to higher birthrates and a religious commitment to stay in Israel so in a generation or two it will be interesting to see how the dynamic changes), not that there is danger of them becoming the Taliban–because the haredi community contrary to popular belief has no aspirations to that effect (stopping blatant public Torah violations by the government and in their communities, yes–but even witihin the haredi community there are wide differences as to what is acceptable, so I doubt anyone has to worry about forced kugel feedings any time soon–I mean what hechsher would they use.

  19. The Doctor

    My reference to the Nuremberg Laws was in response to the comment that the haredi are going through the legal and political process to mold society as they see fit. The Nuremberg Laws were not imposed by a dictate; they were passed in a legal fashion by the German parliament. My point is that I am not reassured by things going through the “proper channels” because that is no guarrantee that the laws thus passed are a good thing.

    Check this week’s Forward for the story of an Orthodox woman who was forced into the back of a public bus not going specifically between haredi communities; she writes of the pressure on the government to make this official policy on all public buses. I believe her exact words were “I don’t expect to live under the Taliban while in Israel.”

    And by the way, name for me a private bus company in the US of A that requires women or minorities sit in the back. It’s completely illegal and I really don’t want to take someone’s word that “it happens in the US” without some kind of verification…

  20. AlexUtiug

    [quote]The Nuremberg Laws were not imposed by a dictate; they were passed in a legal fashion by the German parliament. My point is that I am not reassured by things going through the “proper channels” because that is no guarrantee that the laws thus passed are a good thing.
    Exactly. It is a very dangerous situation. All it takes is one demagogue powerful enough – and Israel (or any other democratic country, for that matter) will become its opposite, democracy or not.

  21. celesteno

    The reason I guess I don’t consider this remotely the same as the Nuremberg laws is that if haredim ever ran Israel the most that would happen is the country would be run according to halacha, and as a Jewish state I think that would be fine—I know, I know my own personal opinion (but there are enough differences of opinion as to what that is that it would never happen, there are way to many factions within the haredi community (and there is a huge dati leumi community as well, which would have to be worked with so it wouldn’t be so extreme) for this to ever occur, maybe more requirement of shops to be closed on Shabbat and a prohibition of things that are essentially treif like pork and shellfish) and the Nuremberg laws were the beginnings of genocide.

    Second the buslines in America are run a little differently as they have a mechitza down the middle (at least the ones I rode), which personally I thought was worse than any of the separate buses I sat on in Israel.

  22. celesteno

    [The Doctor]

    And by the way, name for me a private bus company in the US of A that requires women or minorities sit in the back. It’s completely illegal and I really don’t want to take someone’s word that “it happens in the US” without some kind of verification…

    I’m not going to give the name, but I will tell you that I’ve ridden on it–as I said before its a mechitza down the middle not the back of the bus and I know people that ride it every day.

  23. The Doctor

    I do believe there is a parallel with the Nuremberg laws: those laws were designed to intimidate and make vunerable a group which did not fit in with the vision of the government for the future of that society.

    If Israel passed a law requiring that no one [regardless of who] could drive on Shabbat, that would be, from the point of view of a secular Israeli, an Israeli Christian, or an Israeli Moslem, a clear message that they are not welcome in the State.

    If Israel passed a law requiring that no one [regardless of who] could operate a restaurant which did not meet kashrut guidelines that would be, from the point of view of a secular Israeli, an Israeli Christian, or an Israeli Moslem, a clear message that they are not welcome in the State.

    If Israel passed a law requiring all women to dress sniut [as defined by whomever the state designated as the official Dress Code Maven] that would be no different than the legal restrictions on women’s dress in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or under the Taliban. And don’t tell me that the difference is that no one in Israel would beat women for dressing immodestly; that’s like saying that no one in Israel would ever throw a rock at a car driving by on Saturday…

    As for the bus with the mechitzah, it’s clearly illegal in the US and if someone decided to challenge it it would not stand. “The law of the land is the law” and religious organizations, while they do have some leeway in some areas, cannot discriminate in such a way.

  24. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    AlexUtiug wrote:
    “Exactly. It is a very dangerous situation. All it takes is one demagogue powerful enough – and Israel (or any other democratic country, for that matter) will become its opposite, democracy or not.”

    True, but it works BOTH ways. Israel could also have a militant secularlist take over who will want to outlaw circumcision, take away the laws that one cannot be forced to work on Shabbat, make shechita (kosher slaughtering) illegal, like they are proposing in some European countries, etc. etc. Of course the chances of this happening are about the same as the chances of some ultra-orthodox figure taking over and turning Israel into one big Meah Shearim—- next to nil….

    Despite what the media portrays, the polarization between the “religious” and “secular” is NOT as drastic as one might think and the majority of Israelis fall somewhere between tolerant secular and tolerant religious. Yes, even most haredim in Israel are NOT of the same mindset as the lunatics that the article of this thread is about. They certainly have their opinions, just like anyone else in Israel, but let us not paintbrush people here.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  25. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    TheDoctor wrote:
    “As for the bus with the mechitzah, it’s clearly illegal in the US and if someone decided to challenge it it would not stand. “The law of the land is the law” and religious organizations, while they do have some leeway in some areas, cannot discriminate in such a way.”

    I haven’t lived in the States for over 12 years now, but if I remember the law correctly, if the bus is owned by a private company they do have the leeway of putting up a mechitza, especially if the bus is part of a private school. A public busline? Now that is a different story and the answer is a resounding, “NO WAY”.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  26. tzlil

    מנחם

    Do you live in Israel??? The polarization between secular and religious is VERY drastic. Yes, yes, there are some greys between the black and white, but it is outside Israel that it is not drastic, but in Israel??? they hate each other.
    צליל

  27. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    Tzlil, YES, I do live in Israel for over 12 years now. As a “dati leumi”, “kippa seruga”, etc. I have friends from all walks of life- from secular to ultra-orthodox and everything in between. Certainly, there are extremists on BOTH sides who make a lot of noise and the media makes a great entertainment industry out of these extremists, but “religious” and “secular” hating each other is a pretty broad statement, especially when these labels do NOT do justice to reality- most Israelis are somewhere in the middle (i.e. maybe not “orthodox”, but not totally “secular” either).

    Obviously, I have my disagreements with most “charedim” on certain issues, just like I have my disagreement with “ultra-secular” on certain issues, but to say that the lunatics who are the topic of this thread represent the charedim would be about as fair as saying that “gush-shalom” represents the secular-left.

    Again, the charedim have their opinions just like anyone else and they vote by their opinions just like anyone else. That is democracy. And speaking of “Nazis” and “Nuremberg Laws”, does it sound any better when militant secularists talk about how the charedim are “multiplying too much, parasites, want to take over the country, etc.”. Demagogery works from BOTH sides.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  28. The Doctor

    Don’t misunderstand me. The Nuremberg Laws reference was in response to a statement that the pressure to adopt halachic practices across society was being done “through the process” and therefore should not be alarming to anyone.

    For the record, I have as much concern with laws enforcing secularism as I do with laws enforcing observance. Being personally about halfway inbetween, both extremes frighten me. And having grown up in the American South, where despite laws forbidding the infliction of religious practice on others we were forced into explicitly christian prayers, holiday celebrations, etc in the public schools I am perhaps more sensitive to the activity of those on the Taliban side of the spectrum, as opposed to those on the Bolshevik side. But both extremes should have no place in forcing either observance or lack of observance on private citizens; obviously I believe that public venues such as publically funded schools, transportation, etc should be religion-free; what people do in their own homes, shuls, cars, etc is their problem. Just don’t get the government to push it on others…

    Because that leads either to a “observant” dictatorship such as the Taliban or a “secular” dictatorship such as the USSR.

  29. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    TheDoctor, fair enough. If you got the impression I was singling you out, that was NOT my intention. I wasn’t singling ANYBODY out, but just trying to make people aware of a double standard that sometimes exists. Your above post, more or less, sums up about how I feel on the matter. And the reality I have seen while living in Israel is that the chances of Israel becoming the USSR or Taliban are next to NIL, as most Israelis are somewhere in the middle (and in a democracy, whoever gets the most votes is elected and becomes prime minister). Most likely, the status quo will remain, most Israelis will just continue to live their lives, be mostly worried about how they are going to make a living, support their families, whether or not Iran, Syria, or any of our other jolly “neighbors” will attack us. Setting up a “modesty patrol” or coming up with laws to ban circumcision are just NOT what are on top of most Israelis minds these days.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  30. tzlil

    מנחם:

    Sorry, most Israelis are not religious even if they do Pesach etc. Same as most people do Christamas especially in North America, without even being Christians,(and we are not even talking about the Chanuka Bush…)

    That you have friends in all walks of life simply make you a colourful “grey”…..

    In your last sentence you actually “rested my case”.

    צליל

  31. AlexUtiug

    mbczion, I understand. My point is simply that extremism becomes dangerous when it spills into politics.

  32. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    Tzil wrote:
    “Sorry, most Israelis are not religious even if they do Pesach etc. Same as most people do Christamas especially in North America, without even being Christians,(and we are not even talking about the Chanuka Bush…)”

    That is my point—-most Israelis are not “religious”, BUT most Israelis are not “secular” either (at least not in the truest sense of the word). If you were to do a survey of how many Jewish Israelis fast on Yom Kippur, build a Sukkah, do the Chagim (no, I don’t mean according to halacha), celebrate Purim, Chanukkah, etc., attend or host a Pesach Seder, believe in the importance of Brit Milah and being Bar Mitzvahed, etc. I don’t think “secular” would be an accurate description either. And if you took a survey on how many Israelis “believe in G-d” you might be surprised too. Regarding the Christians in America, they are also IMHO (from what I remember when I lived there) NOT so polarized either.

    Tzlil wrote:
    “That you have friends in all walks of life simply make you a colourful “grey”…..”

    Yes, which is what most Israelis would be described as.

    Tzlil wrote:
    “In your last sentence you actually “rested my case”.”

    Which last sentence would that be? From my last post or the one before?
    If from my last post (#34), then I actually “rested MY case” and if from my post before that (#32), then please explain how that rests either of our cases.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  33. Bat Melech

    If it was their own immodest clothing they were burning, I don’t see that that’s any more of a threat to other communities than the bra-burning feminists of the 70’s USA, or the fundagelical bonfires where born-agains throw their old “demonic” rock.

    If it’s somebody else’s lycra or rock albums they are immolating, that’s a different story. That’s concerning.

  34. The Doctor

    Bat Melech,

    I disagree. It’s making a statement about how they want society to work and there’s still an implication of intimidation to Lycra-wearers who want to live in the same society.

    The fact that it’s their own Lycra is immaterial. The Klan uses its own wood to make burning crosses to use at their private rallies; doesn’t make it any less intimidating.

  35. Israel

    [celesteno]First of all, its not all haredim and its their clothes (except for a few nutjobs who need to be arrested), they can burn them if they want to.

    The issue is not whether or not they have the right to burn their own clothes. The issue is whether or not they are sending an aggressive and very negative message by doing so. I think they are. Burning is a very, very symbolic gesture (particularly to religious nutcases). You know, like burning a flag?

    [celesteno]Second the deporting arabs–haredim don’t all support mass deportation of arabs (i’m sure that there are some that probably do), but I know plenty of secular Israelis that would be willing to ship every arab in Israel somewhere else so I don’t understand your point.

    What on earth are you talking about? Israel is currently not a theocracy. The ruling population does not deport arabs. Are you suggesting that if the ultra orthadox took over complete power in Israel that they would not start treating arabs worse than the current leadership?

    ישראל

  36. Israel

    [celesteno] not that there is danger of them becoming the Taliban–because the haredi community contrary to popular belief has no aspirations to that effect (stopping blatant public Torah violations by the government and in their communities, yes–but even witihin the haredi community there are wide differences as to what is acceptable, so I doubt anyone has to worry about forced kugel feedings any time soon–I mean what hechsher would they use.

    No, I’m afraid you’re wrong. There are areas in Jerusalem where a tax-paying citizen of Israel would not be able to drive their car through (even though a public street) on shabbat without risk of having their car stoned.

    Sounds taliban-like to me. Can you imagine what they would feel free in doing should they come to power? They wouldn’t just be burning clothing, my friend.

    ישראל

  37. Israel

    [celesteno]if haredim ever ran Israel the most that would happen is the country would be run according to halacha, and as a Jewish state I think that would be fine.

    And you base that on… what? Speculation?

    If ultra-orthadox nutjobs took over israel, not only would the state be run according to halacha, but punishments as well. I wonder how homosexuals would be punished? I wonder how people who cheat on their wives/husbands would be punished? I wonder if a tax-paying citizen would be able to drive on Shabbat? What would be the punishments? Hmmmm. I really wonder what your idea of a state where “the most that would happen is” that its run according to halacha?

    ישראל

  38. Israel

    [mbczion]Despite what the media portrays, the polarization between the “religious” and “secular” is NOT as drastic as one might think and the majority of Israelis fall somewhere between tolerant secular and tolerant religious.

    Nowhere will you find to groups of people that despise each other the way the secular in Israel do againt the ultra orthadox. No amount of icing sugar is going to hide that fact.

    ישראל

  39. Israel

    [Bat Melech]If it was their own immodest clothing they were burning.

    So if I have “my own” israeli flag, then its not really sending an aggressive message when I burn it? They are not burning “their own” clothings. They are burning they symbols of OTHER PEOPLE’S lifestyles and beliefs. Thats exactly what they are aiming to do.

    ישראל

  40. mbczion

    בס’’ד

    Israel wrote:
    “Nowhere will you find to groups of people that despise each other the way the secular in Israel do againt the ultra orthadox. No amount of icing sugar is going to hide that fact.”

    And, Israel, who exactly is representing the “secular” here? You. The “secular” you associate with. The “secular” I associate with. And who, exactly, is “secular”? Whoever is NOT orthodox. Whoever does not believe in G-d. Whoever keeps very little of the mitzvot. None of the mitzvot.

    And is having disagreements on issues considered hating? Dunno. I just need some clarification here because there is a bit of ambiguity.

    מנחם בן צבי הכהן

  41. tzlil

    Israel:
    I agree with what you said.
    In fact, if the ultra ortodox take over Israel, they may even deport all Israelis that don’t follow their kind of ortodoxy. That includs people that are Shomre Mitzvot, but not very ortodox. They will keep the Moslems, because they have no problems with them. Even now they are siding with the Palestinians against Israel, and they rejoys when a bomber kills Israelies. (And this goes against the Torah teachings.)

    I also agree with you that burning clothings is a symbol against other people’s life style.

    מנחם
    SECULAR depands on who is talking. For the ultra ortodox you are secular too.
    Look at the Jews of New York. The Satmar Chasidim hate the Chabad Chasidim. For them, Chabad , who are ortodox, are not at all. So much so, that at one point and not too long ago, the Satmar Chasidim sent a pig into the Chabad streets to make thier point….

    צליל

  42. celesteno

    [Israel]

    No, I’m afraid you’re wrong. There are areas in Jerusalem where a tax-paying citizen of Israel would not be able to drive their car through (even though a public street) on shabbat without risk of having their car stoned.

    Sounds taliban-like to me. Can you imagine what they would feel free in doing should they come to power? They wouldn’t just be burning clothing, my friend.

    ישראל

    It’s not the Taliban, its respecting their community–they’re not killing people for not following their religious dictates, they’re setting standards for the community they live in. They move to certain communities to avoid things like people driving on Shabbat–and the people throwing rocks that people always talk about are little kids.

  43. tzlil

    Celecteno:
    I don’t know where you live, or if you wish to dellude yourself.

    The people throwing rocks on Shabbat (is that not considered work? also an act of extreme aggration = against Torah…) are not children. They are adults young AND OLD . It is very well documented on film, pictures in news, and by people like myself who have SEEN it with thier own two eyes because they LIVED in Jerusalem for many years. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!

    Celecteno it is best to think before you write things you know nothing about.

    צליל

  44. celesteno

    [tzlil]Israel:
    I agree with what you said.
    In fact, if the ultra ortodox take over Israel, they may even deport all Israelis that don’t follow their kind of ortodoxy. That includs people that are Shomre Mitzvot, but not very ortodox. They will keep the Moslems, because they have no problems with them. Even now they are siding with the Palestinians against Israel, and they rejoys when a bomber kills Israelies. (And this goes against the Torah teachings.)

    I also agree with you that burning clothings is a symbol against other people’s life style.

    מנחם
    SECULAR depands on who is talking. For the ultra ortodox you are secular too.
    Look at the Jews of New York. The Satmar Chasidim hate the Chabad Chasidim. For them, Chabad , who are ortodox, are not at all. So much so, that at one point and not too long ago, the Satmar Chasidim sent a pig into the Chabad streets to make thier point….

    צליל

    You agree based on what, how many haredi people do you know-they would never deport Jews out of Israel-that’s completely untrue. Why would they keep muslims and kick out jews, they do NOT side with the Palestinians. They don’t rejoice when suicide bombers kill Jews (haredi people are sometimes victims, secular Israelis aren’t the only ones who get killed by suicide bombers. The people who went to Tehran and march with Palestinians are a small fringe group that are shunned by the rest of the Haredi community, their actions have been unanimously denounced by every Orthodox group from the far left to the far right, at least one of the attendees has been put in cherim. The Satmar/Chabad thing is more complicated than you’re making it and again just because some people do something crazy doesn’t mean that its representative of the whole group. There are far more secular Jews supporting the Palestinians than Orthodox ones, all those far left, Israel is the new nazi germany people are not walking around in streimels.

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